Informed Aging

Episode 107: Care at Work: Why Employers Should Pay Attention to Caregivers

• Robin Rountree

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 Robin Rountree: Welcome to Informed Aging, a podcast about health help. And hard decisions for older adults. My name is Robin Rountree. I am a former family caregiver. I've worked in the home care industry, and now I work for the Alzheimer's and Dementia Resource Center. The thoughts and opinions expressed on this podcast belong to me and my guest, not our wonderful employers and sponsors. Before making any significant changes in your life or your person's life,

[00:00:31] please consult your own experts. We know there's a lot of things wrong with elder care, but we've got somebody today who is working on ways to improve it. She's an architect for an intergenerational economy and workplace. That sounds like a lot, but she's got some great ideas, so stay tuned.

[00:00:51] Senior Helpers is the only home care agency offering a revolutionary new way to approach senior care, the Life Profile Assessment. This database app is a crucial tool in helping seniors age safely and successfully at home. Combined with our proven in-home care programs and trained caregivers, senior helpers life profile is leading the way to better outcomes.

[00:01:17] For our clients. For more information, log on to senior helpers.com/orlando.

[00:01:25] 

[00:02:24] Robin Rountree: We are back and I'm so excited We are talking with Marissa Toldo, who is coming to us from Germany,

[00:02:32] how are you? 

[00:02:34] Marisa: I'm really fine. I'm really grateful for this opportunity to be here with you. How are you doing today? 

[00:02:41] Robin Rountree: I'm doing great. And, uh, you do have an accent and you have, uh, a bit of an unusual background. So tell us about that. 

[00:02:49] Marisa: Well, I was, born and raised in Venezuela.

[00:02:52] My parents, they were both Italians who immigrated in the fifties. In 2001, I moved to Spain , and 15 years ago I ended up in Berlin.

[00:03:02] Robin Rountree: Well, wonderful. So you, your job title is Architect for an Intergenerational Economy and Workplace. 

[00:03:11] Marisa: Yes. Yes, yes. 

[00:03:12] Robin Rountree: What does that mean? 

[00:03:14] Marisa: Well, I will explain how I ended up with this title. My dad was living with dementia.

[00:03:21] And one day I, I was looking for a solution that I, I like because what I found that was not so exciting and I start to look around and we were visiting him one day in the facility care in Italy, and he was, you know, in his own world.

[00:03:36] And suddenly my niece run around and jump into a swing. And , they saw each other, the eyes connected and they smiled at each other. And for me was one of these aha moments. And I saw intergenerational, what is that? And, and I found a beautiful world there. I always say what happened there is magic. Then I went into research, I did a certification with Generation working that I became even a -tutor with them because I see the, the power and the, the impact that can have in all of, the people around.

[00:04:19] And yeah, for that reason I said, okay, let's go. We need to be connected across generations.

[00:04:24] Because this aha moment with my dad and my niece been for me, life changing. 

[00:04:31] Robin Rountree: And I think anybody can relate to a grandparent's eyes lighting up when their grandchildren are around or if it's just a small child.

[00:04:41] I've seen it with people living with dementia. They're just transported when there's a child around. And our society has kind of moved away from all the generations growing up together. So you're saying we need to kind of come back to that and that will help our dementia care. 

[00:04:59] Marisa: Our dementia care, our caregivers, our kids.

[00:05:03] The loneliness would help everyone. So what I found so beautiful and so touching and for me that's super important because when you see what is happening in the world and, and what, what we are going on and how the Longevity Society is gonna affect us.

[00:05:22] Why we keep living in silos when we can have a more natural way of living. So a more, you know, I'm, I'm half Italian. For me, it's easy to be in a table with fourth generations. I thought that was normal for everyone because was my default model. So I grew up with my grandma at home, and then I realized during, the certification that no, it's, it's not normal anymore.

[00:05:49] And, and wow for me, what, like, okay, let's, let's go and let's focus and let's talk about it. Because for me, like it's normal that you spend on Sunday with your uncles and, and sitting together with 93 years old and three years old, but apparently it's not the normality. It's not, 

[00:06:06] Robin Rountree: I guess not.

[00:06:07] Now, I do know some Italian families in the States that still do that, so it's not totally gone away. But, you know I don't have any relatives within a 10 minute drive, you know, so I think a lot of us are seeing that we don't have that relative close to us and for a while it was sold "yeah. Go out and go after your career.

[00:06:31] Even if it means moving across the country" but there is a little bit of a price to pay. 

[00:06:36] Marisa: Yes, and, and we're human beings. We need a human connection and we're living in spaces, close to people, and we are not even seeing each other. And, and why not explore these connections, bridge connections.

[00:06:52] Because it's also when, when you know someone, it's, it's a gift. And you, you, you learn and they learn from you. It's a beautiful exchange. It's building bridges. Building commonalities and what I always like, like my mentor, when I told, when I was doing the certification, I told him, yeah, the joy of being together.

[00:07:12] He, and he told me, no, the joy of becoming together. And for me, this becoming together, it's a gift that, yeah, it's not for everyone, but some people might need this be coming together, you know? So why, why not to explore that? 

[00:07:30] Robin Rountree: So by becoming together, is that like two strangers become friends? Is that what you are referring to?

[00:07:38] Marisa: Yeah, it's, it's incredible. When you see the, the intergenerational practice, it's guided activities and you share time and space and some activities. And you build these bridges between people. So elders learn to move more, they're more active. Kids learn how to behave, have patience,, you can build different activities and , we learn from each other and we learn

[00:08:05] what is being patient, what is also listening, and also what is receiving and giving and, for me it's key because it's part of how humans are, how we're as social animals.

[00:08:19] Robin Rountree: Okay, so we know the problem. We're scattered and a lot of people don't have family nearby. We know the good thing, which is being around people, especially inter generations, the old with the young and everybody in between. How do we bridge that gap between what it is now and what we think it should be?

[00:08:42] Marisa: I bring here a provocation because I, talk about, as a provocation, I spent years researching and talking with different people. So I'm, I'm really super curious and I talk with anthropologists, sociology, philosophers, data guys, doctors, and what I realize is we spend almost or more than 40 years in the workplace, and we have some beautiful examples of companies who providing 

[00:09:09] childcare. 

[00:09:11] Robin Rountree: Okay, 

[00:09:12] Marisa: it's a positive return of investment. What happen if we also include daycare facility, an intergenerational club sponsor by your employer and the city? I know I'm, I'm changing hard beliefs here.

[00:09:28] I know. I'm really, for the reason I talk about provocation, let's provoke because I, I like to have fun also. No. And then if you go straightforward to the people, and like my godmother, she used to be a human psychologist and she, she always told me, you are pretending that people change their beliefs and this is the most hard thing to do.

[00:09:50] And then I say, okay, let's provoke. 'cause maybe with a provocation we move a little bit forward. 

[00:09:56] Robin Rountree: We can change. 

[00:09:58] Marisa: Yeah. 

[00:09:58] Robin Rountree: I love that you're pretending that people change. Yeah. Yeah. Change is hard. Change is hard. So instead of just coming to work, and this would be a larger workplace where they have a daycare, you would not only bring your child, but your parent. That would, that's your thinking, and they would hang out together and get that intergenerational magic happening while you are earning your money. 

[00:10:26] Marisa: Yes. Because what we see, and I guess many caregivers can relate, is that you are just you and that they have just 24 hours.

[00:10:34] Robin Rountree: Yeah. 

[00:10:35] Marisa: And you need to pay the bills. 

[00:10:37] Robin Rountree: Right? Yes. 

[00:10:39] Marisa: And, and how you are able to pay the bills when you need to reduce hours because you're not able to work. 

[00:10:45] Robin Rountree: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:46] Marisa: And for me was, one of the things that I faced myself because when the situation with my dad, uh, was increasing because one day after the other, my mom passed away with a heart attack.

[00:10:58] I was in Italy and I could stay there three months. Meanwhile, we, we were. Getting some solutions and then I realized that, wow,

[00:11:09] what we can do, because I, I dropped many projects. I'm an architect myself. I could not handle big project as I used to have. But I start to realize, I say, what, this should be my problem, just my problem or, or the reality of many people.

[00:11:26] And I freak out with what I found. So you have, um, the caring company. It's a study run by the Harvard University, says that 73% of their employees are caregivers, 73%. It's a number.

[00:11:42] Why, so why we need to run in that crazy way, why I need to drop our work environment because it's affecting your salary, your career perspective, and your retirement. When we could have a system support that. I always talk about the ecosystem's, not just one factor, but many factors of how we can better have an environment, a supportive, and nutrition environment for everyone.

[00:12:11] Yeah. And I have been thinking and running around and going with these provocations up and down to see how people react. Because some employers say, no, it's too much for us. We don't want the liability. But then you drop the city and say, well, you also have a problem because if a company cannot have employees, you'll not get taxes.

[00:12:31] You know? Yeah. So we, we need to, we need to change. Think more in a ecosystem solution because it's an ecosystem problem. Right. So I know, I know that it's quite challenging. I know it. 

[00:12:46] Robin Rountree: It, it is a challenge, but I'm glad that you're fighting for it because I'm thinking if, if a corporation heard 75% of their employees had diabetes, they would bring in a nutritionist stat because they know those people are gonna be calling out sick more possibly.

[00:13:03] Or if 75% of your employees. I don't know, had heart disease, I think they would make a change, but that large percentage, their caregivers, it's just like, oh, well that's just what they are, but. Why don't you help them with the home life, the ecosystem. I love how you're thinking. And then, you know, you've got the adult parent and the kid and yeah, you'll have to stay home with them if they're sick.

[00:13:30] 'cause you don't wanna get everybody sick. But I, I think it's genius, but corporations aren't really jumping on board that 

[00:13:38] Marisa: well, the funny part, they don't see the problem because no one talks about it. This something that really strike me. I guess people, people who are also caregiver, are related. You normally talk about your child, you know, it's a kid, start to walk, start to sing.

[00:13:56] But with, with a situation that you deeply touch with your parents who are your heroes, it's really hard to talk about. Really hard. And what I found is, okay, I start to make some noise with some corporate. Oh, you have a childcare there. Amazing. And they're super proud of their childcare. So yeah, because blah, blah, I say like, let's talk about elder care.

[00:14:19] And then you hear the cricket, I like, hello, I'm here.

[00:14:23] Robin Rountree: I think we just need one big corporation to stand up and try it. And I think the success would just encourage other people. 

[00:14:33] Marisa: Because the, the funny part I was asking my doctor. Say like in Germany, you, you have a lot of sick notes. People are taking a lot of sick leave is like working a lot of part-time.

[00:14:43] It's like a quite a challenging situation now. And then I see, I asked him how you, you write the notes for sick leave. So what, what people say? Say like, no, people lie, they prefer to say I'm sick rather than my child is sick,, or I need to bring my mom to the doctor.

[00:15:00] So how we can real measure a problem when we don't talk about if everybody's 

[00:15:04] Robin Rountree: lying. Okay. So it's really challenging. You call in, yeah. Yeah. So you're taking care of a parent with dementia. They're having a bad day. You've been up all night. It's a stressful situation. You can't handle work. You call in sick because we have sick time.

[00:15:22] You don't call in and say the house is on fire. Figuratively. Okay. So if we aren't honest about the problem, we can't create the solution. 

[00:15:32] Marisa: I, I think so. But also the other part is in order to talk about it, you need to feel safe in your work environment. You know, for that reason. I always say this is an ecosystem problems and we already change beliefs.

[00:15:47] We need to make numbers because we don't have these numbers, which is quite, for me, shocking because we need to put a number and tell them You're losing this amount of money because you don't care. And the problem is you. It's not about you get rid of this employee and you get another one because the problem is systemic.

[00:16:09] The next one will have the same problem too! 

[00:16:12] Robin Rountree: Right. 

[00:16:13] Marisa: You know? 

[00:16:14] Robin Rountree: Yep. And it's not just your typical kids before they're in school. It's not just elder, it's, you know, so many people are parents of special needs, children who become special needs adults and still need help there. So, yeah. Uh, you are onto something, Marissa. 

[00:16:33] Marisa: I hope so.

[00:16:35] I, I hope so, because I, I really believe that we can make an impact here, which is needed. 

[00:16:41] Robin Rountree: Yes. And if any corporations are listening and wanna know more, how could they find you, Marissa? 

[00:16:47] Marisa: Well, uh, they can write me an email, they can find me a LinkedIn and they can check the website if they want. I'm more than happy to talk about it because we need to This elephant.

[00:17:00] Robin Rountree: The elephant in 

[00:17:01] the room. 

[00:17:02] Marisa: Yeah, because I always say the elephant is getting bigger and the room is not getting bigger. 

[00:17:08] Robin Rountree: No. No. So in your bio you were talking about, you're trying to find solutions that, that bring in three things in their autonomy, dignity, and deep connection. Let's go through that list about what that means to you.

[00:17:24] Autonomy. What does that bring up in your mind? 

[00:17:27] Marisa: To be able to decide, you know, to be able to decide I want to be here. . The autonomy for people to stay home if they want because 24 7 caregiving solution is not real. No government worldwide can support that. So we really need to move forward to a more daycare thinking facility care.

[00:17:53] That allow people to be autonomous. So I really think that the, the technology is going to run crazy and it will allow us to have more autonomy in the sense that, okay, I want to stay here. I, I'm supported Dignity is because my dad and my mom, they were amazing people. Super ethical and for me,

[00:18:18] I remember when we visit, we visit six facility cares in Italy before put my dad in one. And when I saw the first one, I'm still getting emotional. I, I told my brother, this is worse than a jail you know? Yeah. And the other, I told my brother, have you seen the caregivers?

[00:18:38] Who can provide care when no one cares about you? Who can you be a real hard, generous caregiver when the system is treating you so bad? I'm not talking about all the reality of the facility, but many of them no. 

[00:18:56] Robin Rountree: Right? 

[00:18:56] Marisa: The dignity of all the ecosystem, the dignity of the people living with dementia to be treated as a human being that they are. And then the dignity of the employees working in the care facilities, because in order to provide care. You need to, you need to feel care. You need to, you need to feel protected and care and value. And I, I interview many caregivers in many facility cares, and they, many told me, okay, I, I love my work, but I cannot keep running in that way.

[00:19:29] It's impossible for me. Yeah. But then I saw other facilitators, I was visiting some of them in Holland, and I, really freak out in a positive way. They were so happy and "I'm so happy working here. I'm like, really? I remember one of Facility Care I visited in Holland, one of the employees told me I used to be a manager in a supermarket and I, I didn't like it.

[00:19:50] I start to work here. I was, wow. And then she told me six months ago, my 19 years old daughter, she start to work here and she love it. And I was like, okay, it's possible. It's real. 

[00:20:02] Robin Rountree: So what's 

[00:20:03] the difference?

[00:20:04] Marisa: Not all of the facility cares, but I was visiting some amazing facility cares.

[00:20:08] This gentleman invite me to visit some facility cares and they work, many of them with, an anthropologist and , they change the care view. You are not sick. People are not using uniforms because you are not sick. Oh, one point, which is amazing. So you visit the facility cares. They are cultures because they support you to have a better life and to live better.

[00:20:39] The other point is like they, they mix personal. They train the people who were working in the flower shop in the baker. To provide care. And these mixed groups between nurses and these trained people works like heaven because this sick dark medical view is out and it's more a human approach.

[00:21:02] Robin Rountree: . So like the CNAs aren't wearing their scrubs, they're just dressed like normal people who are helping you out. That's a, a small change and you still gotta have clothes that launder well, because accidents happen. But wow, what a change.

[00:21:20] Marisa: You visit the place, the spaces, and you find people walking around in a really human way. They have support, they have their cultures, and you don't feel like you are in a clinical environment because you live there, you know? 

[00:21:35] Robin Rountree: Right, right. Wow. 

[00:21:37] And I think about what you say about professional caregivers. It's hard to care when they're not cared for. That also applies to the family. If the person with dementia isn't able to show the appreciation, um.

[00:21:52] Then it's hard for them to be cared for.

[00:21:54] Marisa: Yeah. It's, it's caring. By caring as you say. Maybe you cannot say that today, but you, you see that in a, in a, how you say, in, in your eyes, in a gesture with your hands. Uh, it's many ways. What I learned with my dad and something that I really learned there is to be present.

[00:22:15] And sometimes it's so hard to be present and you need a bunch of patience because, you know, it depends on the day. But just maybe, uh, when, when he see you, even though he doesn't remember who you are, but you can see in this beautiful eyes, that's a gratitude. 

[00:22:34] Robin Rountree: Yeah. I love that you're an architect and caring for your dad has led you to this research.

[00:22:41] And I really hope your message gets out there. You have some incredible points.

[00:22:46] Oh, Marissa, we're gonna have the link to your email, to your LinkedIn and, and your website in our comments. Thank you so much for your ideas on aging and how we can do it better. And I hope that these changes happen.

[00:23:02] Marisa: That, that's for sure. I'm fighting for it, you know. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:23:08] Robin Rountree: Please make sure to subscribe to our podcast Informed Aging, tell your family and friends about us as well. You can find us at facebook.com/informed Aging. Today's episode was recorded at ADRC's Podcast Studio.

[00:23:21] That's it for now. We're looking forward to our next visit.

[00:23:25]